Obeying God and pursuing financial success

Are you and all others who tithe receiving the overflowing blessings promised in Malachi 3:10-12? Perhaps you need to keep the other 612 commandments in order to claim those overflowing blessings. Compare Galatians 3:10 to Deu 27:26 and the word ALL.

God also told Isreal flat out to kill disbodient children. Do you do that also?

Ex 21:15-17

15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

NT giving is freewill, sacrificial, generous, joyful, not by commandment or percentage and motivated byk love for God and lost souls. That is blessed byk the Holy Spirit and tithig is not.

Author of Should the Church Teach Tithing?

@Russell

I, too, am a tither and yes I have most definitely received the overflowing blessings promised in His word. Everyone I have ever talked to about the issue has as well. My question to you would be this: Have you kept this commandment and NOT received the overflowing blessings promised? Do you know anyone who has NOT?

As far as keeping the other 612 commandments. I guess I would be interested to know where all 612 commandments are. Are we talking commandments in the old or new testament? If it’s old testament then were they reaffirmed in the new testament as tithing was? When Jesus came it changed everything. So a lot of the Old Testament laws are no longer applicable.

Everyone I have ever talked to about the issue
has as well.

COMMENT: You must not have talked to many people. Go the Internet and Google “tithe” and “tithing” and you will find many tithers who are trying to decide whether to tithe or pay their mortgage.
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My question to you would be this: Have you kept this commandment and NOT received the overflowing blessings promised?

COMMENT: Do you know what the word ALL means?

Deut 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not ALL the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Deut 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do ALL his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

Deut 28:12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

You and I cannot claim the blessings of tithing unless we observe ALL 613 commandments of the Law.
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Do you know anyone who has NOT?

COMMENT: The ghettos are full of generations of tithers who are still waiting for their money tree or lottery to pay off.
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As far as keeping the other 612 commandments. I guess I would be interested to know where all 612 commandments are.

COMMENT: Like tithing, they are all part of Law.

MALACHI’S AUDIENCE:
• Num 10:29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses’ father in law, We are journeying unto the place of which the LORD said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the LORD hath spoken good concerning Israel. Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
• ……………………………………….
Are we talking commandments in the old or
new testament? If it’s old testament then were they reaffirmed in the new testament as tithing was?

COMMENT: Tithing was NOT reaffirmed in the NT for the church after Calvary. The NT did not begin until Jesus died. In Mt 23:23 he could not and did not tell his Gentile disciples to tithe.
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When Jesus came it changed everything. So a lot of the Old Testament laws are no longer applicable.

COMMENT: None of the OT laws were given to Gentiles. The eternal moral laws were revealed by nature and conscience and in the New Covenant written in the heart. Tithing was not included. Rom 2:14-16; Heb 8:8-13.
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Russ

Thank you for a great post. I am no longer a 20-something but wish I had reached this insight YEARS ago myself. So many of my small but ultimately meaningful decisions were based on a world-view of money as God. Carefully and prayerfully examining your choices from the perspective of your walk within God’s will is an ongoing battle - but you have taken an important first step. Also, I have really found all of John McArthur’s writings to be both helpful and challenging. (He has an excellent short booklet on the will of God, too.).

@ Russ
In reaction to my statement that everyone I talked to who tithed saw the overflow of God’s blessing, you stated that there are many tithers who are trying to decide whether to tithe or pay their mortgage. I agree. There are many tithers who have taken the blessings God has given them for tithing and not used it wisely. I have fallen into that category myself and have had to make the difficult decision of whether to pay tithe or the bills. Receiving the blessing and what you do with that blessing are two different things. The other possibility for these circumstances would be that the giving wasn’t done out of the right heart. If someone gave tithe so that they would be rewarded monetarily then they may not receive the blessing God intended for that action. Another thing to mention is that the blessing received may not necessarily be monetary. Perhaps God will bless the person in some other way.

I also noticed that you did not answer my question, so I shall pose it again. Have you kept this commandment and NOT received the overflowing blessings promised? It seems to me that the easiest way to test this out is to follow His word. It’s the only place where God asks us to test him so why NOT do it? I understand that you may be skeptical about this but I encourage you to step out on faith. Giving, despite knowing where the money for other things will come from has been a great faith building exercise for me personally. It’s very exciting to see God meet your needs.

Now, I believe the reason you didn’t answer my above question is that you believe unless we follow all 613 commandments we cannot claim the blessing of tithing. I find it odd though, that to back up your statement you quote the book of Deuteronomy. Since the book of Deuteronomy is in the Old Testament and you yourself state that the Old Testament laws are no longer relevant to use. Wouldn’t that include these statements as well, making the law that we must follow all 613 laws now null and void? If this is, in fact true then we must look solely to the New Testament for the truth of this matter. I believe you will agree with me on that point.

So I think our difference really comes down to the fact that you do not believe tithing is required in the New Testament and I do. I did see that you back this up with two passages, Romans 2:14-16 and Hebrews 8:8-13. Romans 2:14-16 states “for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.”. I agree with this whole heartedly. If someone doesn’t know the specifics of the law then how can they be asked to follow it specifically? They can’t. However, they should still be doing the law based on their very nature. I see this to mean that although they may not be giving 10%, they should still be giving something out of gratitude and joy. For those of us who DO know the law, we should be following it in this manner or giving 10%.

Hebrews 8:8-13 states “But God found fault with the people and said: “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” 13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” I to agree with this scripture and don’t think it contradicts tithing in the slightest. We all know the Lord personally now and don’t have to go to a rabbi to be taught the word. We can take it and be taught it by God. How awesome is that! He will use the Holy Spirit to write the law in our minds and hearts. Again, though, I’m not sure what this has to do with tithing. Just because he will write the law in our minds and hearts doesn’t mean there is no longer a law or that all the laws of the old testament are no longer valid.

There are certain laws from the Old Testament which Jesus says we should still follow, such as tithing. Take these two passages for example; Matthew 23:23 and Hebrews 7. In Matthew 23:23 Jesus says “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.”. In this verse Jesus states that they should still have given a tenth of their spices, but should have practiced the other virtues as well. It seems to me that this is a reaffirmation of the fact that we should still give 10%. Hebrews 7 (I won’t quote it here could that would be to long) talks about a man called Melchizedek who “remains a priest forever, resembling the Son of God.”. Over and over in this chapter an allusion is made of how Jesus now fulfills this priestly role for us. Since, at the beginning of the chapter it talks about how Abraham blessed Melchizedek with his tithe it seems to me that we should be doing the same with our new priest under the New Covenant. I believe that the reference to the tithe was not put in there to simply fill space but rather that it was to be an example of how we should honor Jesus in our New Covenant.

Have you kept this commandment and NOT received the overflowing blessings
promised?

REPLY: I do give more than 10% of my increase to God’s work. But that is not biblical tithing. And you do not biblically tithe either. You cannot biblically tithe unless you are either a farmer or herdsman living inside Israel in the Old Testament. If you disagree, please give me Bible texts which prove otherwise.
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It’s the only place where God asks us to test him so why NOT do it?

COMMENT: Again I ask you to read Deuteronomy 27:26 through Deuteronomy 29. The entire 613 commandments of the Law was a TEST. And you cannot honestly deny that! God said “Keep ALL of the Law in order to claim any of its blessings; break any of the Law and you will lose its blessings.” Why do you ignore Galatians 3:10 which is quoting Deuteronomy 27:26?
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I encourage you to step out on faith.

COMMENT: I do. You don’t. You are stepping out on a LAW promise which was contingent on obedience to all 613 commandments.
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I find it odd though, that to back up your statement you quote the book of Deuteronomy.

COMMENT: Galatians 3:10-13 is New Covenant after Calvary.

Gal 3:10-13
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
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Wouldn’t that include these statements as well, making the law that we must follow all 613 laws now null and void? If this is, in fact true then we must look solely to the New Testament for the truth of this matter. I believe you will agree with me on that point.

COMMENT: This is very garbled. Please restate it. When the USA signed the Declaration of Independence ALL English Laws became null and void –including the good ones. We then restated the good laws in the context of our new constitution. That is the difference between the Old and New Covenant. None of the Old Covenant was given to Gentiles. That part of the Old Covenant which was moral and eternal was restated in terms of Calvary.
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So I think our difference really comes down to the fact that you do not believe tithing is required in the New Testament and I do.

COMMENT: There are 25 tithing principles in the Old Covenant and the Church obeys NONE of them. For example, those who received the first tithes were not allowed to own or inherit property. Does your church forbid this? Why not?
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Romans 2:14-16

COMMENT: The moral part of the law was active in Gentiles. Tithing is not a moral commandment and can only be known as a percentage through special revelation to Israel.
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However, they should still be doing the law based on their very nature. I see this to mean that although they may not be giving 10%, they should still be giving something out of gratitude and joy.

COMMENT: You are getting closer. Giving is moral; tithing is legal. Many of us should sacrificially give more than 10% but that is still not tithing.
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For those of us who DO know the law, we should be following it in this manner or giving 10%.

COMMENT: Do you really know the law? I was never a national Israelite and God never told me to tithe. “IT” still refers to all 613 commandments and you are unable to extricate your logic from that.
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Hebrews 8:8-13
How awesome is that! He will use the Holy Spirit to write the law in our minds and hearts.

COMMENT: NT giving is freewill, sacrificial, generous, joyful, not by commandment OR PERCENTAGE and motivated by love for God and lost souls. Tithing 10% is not found within the heart of believers.
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Just because he will write the law in our minds and hearts doesn’t mean there is no longer a law or that all the laws of the old testament are no longer valid.

COMMENT: ALL the laws????? You are soooo confused. Try reading Exodus 21 through Deuteronomy and make a list of how many of the laws have been restated after Calvary. You will surprise yourself.
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Matthew 23:23 CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT
Woe to you, teachers of the law and
Pharisees: Jesus is addressing Pharisees and scribes, not the Church or Gentiles.
you hypocrites: You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin.: Jesus is calling Pharisees and scribes hypocrites because they added garden spices to the definition of tithes as food from crops and herds.
But you have neglected the more important MATTERS OF THE LAW—justice,
mercy and faithfulness: Why are you ignoring the context of Jesus’ words???
You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former”: Jesus is criticizing the Pharisees and scribes. He is not telling the Church to tithe because they could not tithe even if they tried.
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they should still have given a tenth
we should still give 10%:

COMMENT: There is a difference between THEY to Hebrews and WE to the Church.
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Hebrews 7

COMMENT: I have two very long chapters in my book and on my web site on Genesis 14 and Hebrews 7. You are treating me as if I am biblically ignorant. I can quote those verses.
(1) Hebrews quotes Ps 110:4 many times. The Melchizedek king-priesthood proves that the Law will be replaced by the Messiah.
(2) Heb 7:12 says there will be a necessary change of the Law (especially tithing from 7:5).
(3) Heb 7:18 says the Law will be annulled because of the better new covenant of 7:19.
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Russ Kelly

Hi all,

It seems to me that the arguments against tithes are often tenious these days. There are a few serious problems with arguing against tithes from the Law, because often is the case that assertions are made which cannot stand up to scrutiny.

1. Take, for instance, the so-called “613″ commandments or laws. This is simply untenable, because those who use this argument should do their homework properly - the “613″ is an arbitrary number chosen for convenience, and has no foundation whatsoever in Scripture. Not even those who schlepp on that idea are agreed what exactly are the 613 commandments. Does anyone care to delineate them for us?

2. Those who argue long and hard about the law should try not to be selective. It is hypocrisy to try and negate the “613 commandments” while at the same time trying so hard to appeal to some parts of the same Law in Christianity! Why the double standard?

3. The talk about NT giving being “freewill, sacrificial, generous, joyful, not by commandment or percentage and motivated by love” is rubbish. This type of argument is ignoring the very fact that such qualifiers are not perculiar to the NT alone, but in very fact expressed in so many places in the OT as well! Why these pretences as if nobody in the OT knew how to give in precisely those ways?

4. To claim that one is giving ‘more than’ or ‘beyond’ 10% while worrying about about that 10% is highly suspect and dubious. If ‘1 out of 10′ (ie, 10%) is a serious problem, is it easier then to give “more than” that serious problem? What is the point of being sanctimonious about a claim to give “above” 10%, argue against it forever while sanctimoniously claiming to give above what we consider to be hard? Anything you give above 10% is also a percentage; so what is the talk against just 10%?

There are so many childish arguments that those averse to tithes have been schlepping endlessly that hardly pass for intelligence. Please retire this argument about the farce of a “613 commandments” - unless you’re happy to delineate them without being selective. If one of them is untenable, all the other 612 must be treated in precisely the same way. And we know that Christians hold on to many of those commandments and never for an instance remember to treat it with disdain as they treat tithes.

Gwaine

If you do a Google search of “613″ you will find the list on Jewish web sites. The point is not whether or not there are exactly 613. The point is that Galatians 3:10/Deut 27:26 says that one must observe ALL of the Law in order to expect to be blessed by it. Read only one chapter after the Ten Commandments, Exodus 21. The first 11 verses tell Israelites how to treat their slaves. A few verses later they are told to kill their own disobedient children. We are not under those laws.

2. The Law was never given to Christians. The moral law is found throughout the Old Testament. The moral law is written by God in the hearts of all true Christians. The OT Gentiles had the law of nature and conscience in their hearts.

“Only that which is repeated to the Church after Calvary by the Holy Spirit is part of the new law of love.” Many Christians follow this principle to determine what to bring over from the OT law into Christian faith.

I do not appeal to any part of the law which is not clearly repeated in the New Testament to the Church after Calvary. That is being consistent. Those who follow a double standard are inconsistent and have no principle to guide their decisions.

3. Yes. The NT principles of giving which are FREEWILL are very definitely also found in the Old Testament. You make my point very well. Freewill giving is still alive and well in the New Testament after Calvary. Why do you call these “pretenses” when they are all taught in 2nd Corinthians, chapters 8 and 9?

4. I present exactly what God’s teaches and you reply with sarcasm. What does 2nd Corinthians 8:12-15 say to you? Wealthy Christians are not giving “sacrificially” when they stop at 10%. And poor Christians are giving “sacrificially” when they give less than 10%. Why does that bother you so much? I oppose any percentage as not for the church. You are the one who wants to hang onto 10%, not me.

“If one of them is untenable, all the other 612 must be treated in precisely the same way.” THAT IS MY POINT. We are not under any of the Law. Read Romans 7:4 –we are dead to the law. Read Romans 8:2-3 –we live under the new “law of the spirit of life in Christ.”

The Law said “Thou shalt not ………
The new law of love says “As a new creation in Christ I spontaneously will not …..

In Christ’s love
Russ Kelly

Dear Russell,

Thank you for your reply - that was quick. My apologies for my tone earlier, but it was due to the hypocrisy of selective reading which I often find in those opposing tithes under various excuses. I observe that my points did not underscore yours; and there’s no need to patronise me on that. However, here are a few issues that I would like to highlight again.

1. I already looked at the listings of the ‘613′ commandments/laws from various sites before posting on this blog. My point? They are inconsistent, and even those who appeal to that figure are not even agreed what exactly constitutes the ‘613 commandments’. If Christian teachers know this as a fact, one wonders why they have been appealing to the same faulty idea as the basis for arguing ‘truth’. It is not the exactitude of a ‘613′ figure that is the issue; but why would you be appealing to that same misleading idea to press on others?

2. I am aware we are not under the Law; but using such texts as Galatians 3:10 to oppose tithes is extreme and unhealthy. You had been arguing on the word “ALL” in Deut. 27:26, which implies that it is either ALL or NONE of “the words of THIS LAW to do them” (Deut 27:26). It does not make sense to then try to keep SOME of what you negate. This is why your statement that “I do not appeal to any part of the law which is not clearly repeated in the New Testament to the Church after Calvary” is flawed and inconsistent. Why appeal to any part for that matter while haranguing others with the word ALL in Deut. 26:27? This is the selective reading I find quite worrisome in many instances of those arguing against tithes.

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3. “Yes. The NT principles of giving which are FREEWILL are very definitely also found in the Old Testament. You make my point very well.”
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Sorry sir, I do not make your point! Your idea has been to make this principle of freewill a matter only about the NT; and that was why I retired that idea by pointing out that it was definitely also what is found in the OT.

4. I was not being sarcastic, but my apologies if you read me so. Nor was I stuck on 10% - which was my point that any thing you give above that figure is still a percentage. Why then haggle so hard about just 10%?

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5. “If one of them is untenable, all the other 612 must be treated in precisely the same way.” THAT IS MY POINT.
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No sir, that was not your point. Not at all; for if that was your point and you truly believe that the remaining 612 must be treated the same way (that is, make them untenable), then you would not be trying to “determine what to bring over from the OT law into Christian faith”!! This is why I hinted about being extreme with Deut. 27:26 - Christians who argue to negate “ALL” 613 laws are the same folks who are appealing to “bring over” SOME of what they negate and carry them into the Christian faith! Do you see the inconsistency that worries some of us in your type of arguments?

Best regards.

i hate to bust up your party russell and gwaine, but you are starting to sound like the sadducees and the pharisees. i understand you both feel that your view of what God is requiring of the tithe from us is just what you think (interpreted) it to be. God lays a burden (inspiration) on our hearts as we seek to do his will in ever area of our lives. i pay my tithes but i won’t allow my house payment to go unpaid. if i have done All of the commandments of God i am pious in my walk believing that i am perfected in my walk. but until i see God face to face to i leave the imperfections of this life behind. pray that you are doing what God commands with LOVE, the greatest of All that we can do. yes i believe we should do All that Gods’ law of love commands us to do, but alas i am human and the harder i try to do all i fail at something somewhere in the life. God looks at the heart not the wallet, for when i seek to do that which i know is right evil is there to cause me to fail in another place because i am looking too hard at one thing rather than looking in another place. Only God and God alone sees all and knows all and cares for all of us. just seek to do what God inspires you personally to do and God will set right All things when the end of days is here. Pray that you are doing what God directs you to do. the prayers of a righteous man(woman, boy, girl, everybody) availeth much before God. lets make our stand against the enemy not each other, so those that follow in our foots steps won’t stumble over the tithe but walk in the light of love. if i added more confusion to your blog i ask for your forgiveness but tithing is only a part of the work God has for us to do. Love

Hi another believer,
_______

“i hate to bust up your party russell and gwaine, but you are starting to sound like the sadducees and the pharisees. i understand you both feel that your view of what God is requiring of the tithe from us is just what you think (interpreted) it to be.”
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Thank you for your comments. I’m sure that neither Russell, myself nor even you would accede to the appellation of sadducees and pharisees. At best, your own comments could pass as your own “interpretation” of what you assume God would have us think about this subject - so you’re just as well promoting your own pharisaism while disavowing the ideas of other contributors, if you’re at ease to start off being accusative.

Rather, what one would have expected is to see how your own interpretation of the subject could be more helpful.

I have no problem with anyone tithing or choosing to not do so; but I find the excuses against tithing very inconsistent on so many occasions that one just has to point out a few of these mishaps. An example is the appeal to the so-called 613 commandments of the Law. For so many people, it is either you obey “ALL” those 613 commandments, or there’s something terribly wrong. What these dear folks do not realise is that they’re making far too much of the subject than is warranted by the verses they quote to justify their argumentations.

Russell’s point is clear - you and I “cannot claim the blessings of tithing unless we observe ALL 613 commandments of the Law.” However, my point was that such arguments are too strained and consequently convoluted - because it would simply be a matter of observing either “ALL” or “NONE” of those ‘613 commandments of the Law’. That was what I had argued to commend unto Russell’s consideration, to point out to him that if he believed that the other 612 laws were to be treated the same way, then he would not be trying to “determine what to bring over from the OT law into Christian faith”.

No one should be averse to ‘interpretations’; however, one should be willing to have a balance in whatever views they arrive at, as well be willing to retire unhealthy arguments that are obviously convoluted and inconsistent. That is not grounds to accuse others of sounding like “the sadducees and the pharisees” - unless you would be genial enough to show us where you got the inspiration from God to start off so.

However, I appreciate your efforts to weigh in on the subject - and with love, I commend you to God’s grace.

Regards.

I have discovered that for every tithe and offering I pay to the church, the returns from God have been wonderfully encouraging.