Thank you so very much for adding to my understanding. I certainly didn’t have all the answers; but you have helped to contextualize certain issues and also highlighted a few things that I might’ve missed (perhaps due to the ‘technical’ nature of the discussion between Josh and myself). May the Lord Jesus Christ enrich you even more.

Regarding the content, I think you make some very good points. I also respect the points Joshua makes about the institutional church and the dangers of legalism, obligation to the law, etc.

May I add one thing to this already rich discussion? I believe there is a conceptual misstep when people talk about the merits of a church receiving their money.

Conceptually, whether you think it’s required or not, giving “off-the-top” to God is a demonstration of faith, an act of worship, and a choosing of our master. (That’s what it was prior to the law, throughout the law, and after the law, regardless of your interpretation of the “tithe” proper.)

When we adjust that giving based on what we think the recipient might do with it, it’s possible we’re shortchanging the process. Returning a portion back to God, as the rightful owner, should not be tainted by us then claiming a right to determine how that money is spent. It’s God’s.

God has throughout history placed certain people (even people belonging to institutions) in the fearful position of responsibility for that spending. The leaders of many churches today will indeed have a lot to answer for. However, our job is to return back to GOD a portion in recognition that it is His. Giving to the poor is something different entirely. That is something we do from the portion we have left. That portion is “ours” and we determine (on biblical principles) how it is to be spent, and for many reasons, part of that spending should be to give to the poor. Let’s not intermingle the two concept though (giving to God vs. giving to the poor), or much will be missed, from either end of the spectrum.

BTW, I rarely write anything without providing scriptural support, but I perceive that you, Joshua and Gwaine, are capable of reflecting what I’ve written against the Word of God and allowing the Spirit to lead you as He sees fit.

As to the subject at hand: tithing while in debt. If you are making payments according to a schedule that the creditor has agreed to then you are not stealing from someone else in order to give to God. So, tithe (or not. but at least give to God “off-the-top”. Why not start with an arbitrary number, oh say 10%. I suspect that percentage was well-designed by Someone), and pay your bills (creditors included) with what’s left. If, after giving to God, you are not able to make the payments you have agreed to with your creditor, then the only way to survive would be to default or borrow more. In either case, you would be out of line with godly principles. You would then be using someone else’s money to pay God. Ok, so in that case, do what any good financial counselor would tell you. Negotiate new terms with your creditors based on what you have. Propose to them exactly how you intend on paying them back. Make your proposal based on prioritization and proportionality. When doing that, make giving to God your highest priority, for spiritual reasons, not legal (or anti-legal) ones, and I’m sure He will give you profound wisdom in handling those re-negotiations.

God bless,
Jesse

True we are NOT under the Law “which brings a curse now” and “no flesh shall be justified by the works of the Law”

Jesus Christ spilt His blood as the ultimate sacrafice for all mankind. Those of us under the New Covenant look to Jesus as our great High Priest now. With the Law, you could not go directly to God, but you would have to bring them to the High Priest, and the High Priest would represent in behalf of those. That is what 1/3 of Hebrews is talking about, “why would you want to back to the Law?”

However, the Old Testmant is still valid and still pertains to us, and also show us the heart of God.

Examples: Under the Law, man was forbidden to eat the blood of any animal, whatsoever. You had to drain the blood out first and then cut it up to eat.

But that Law is still valid today, as it says in Acts 15:19-20 “Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
but that we write to them to ABSTAIN from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, FROM THINGS STANGLED, AND FROM BLOOD.”

We are still told by God to keep abstaining from drinking blood, yet we are not under the law, but it still applies to us.

The #1 Commandment in the Old Testament is still the #1 Commandment in the New Testament, to this very day “To love thy God with all your heart, mind, and soul”

The 10 Commandments. Even though our salvation does not depend on living up to them, because Jesus has already done that. Most still apply to us today. At least me anyway…If I happen lie, or keep overgiven change, then of course I bow down and repent asking for forgiveness.

Everytime I see a rainbow, It reminds me of the covenent He gave to Noah and to all generations there after, and no one can take that away.

Bottom line, “ALL scripture is inspired by God” Old and New Testament. Jesus said His Word will never pass away, and He has spoken as the Great I AM in the Old and New testament. He tells us to “meditate on it” “learn from It”, and also says “His Word will never return back to Him void”

Either we believe the whole bilbe or don’t believe it all. If we did not have the Old testament, the New testament would make no sense to us, and just as we try to obey the 10 Commandments, we are also still held under a Old Testamant Law “Do not drink the blood of any animal”

My whole point here is, I have read this post from top to bottom, and I can see how Satin creeps into churches or believer’s to start arguing and debating, when we should be typing about winning souls over to Christ.

I love my walk with God, and would not replace it for nothing! I have gave to people in need, bible league, church and many other places.

I do not consider my offerings as a tithe to God anymore. That is like me telling God how He should spend His money.

I love to take 10% of my money first and tell God “here is your money, you know where this needs to go a lot more than I do” Then I thank Him for the rest that I have left over. There is just something so ausome that happens when we stand in faith, even during hard times because I know He will never break His promise to make sure I am feed. If you ever stop to think about it, there are only 2 things that Jesus ever marveled here on earth. It was a person’s “Faith” or “Unbelief”

God is just, and has never failed me in 5 years. I recently got layed of here in California, and I am on unemployment right now, and I can’t wait to give to God. Like it was said above “giving is better than recieving” and I give to God and those in need.

It reminds me of when Jesus and all the desciple where gathering up money together, and a woman came up and cheerfully and willingly gave what she had with all her heart, which was: with two mites. That is why Jesus said “this woman has given more than anyone here, for she gave her last..”

Jesus concludes “Give unto what Ceaser’s and give to God, what is God’s”
cut and dry.

Advise: Pray to your Best Friend (and Father) in Heaven, and listen to Him and His Word.

May God Bless You all and keep us all on the right track!
Todd

Google has been a great help in my checking the arguments on either side – and it was precisely that exercise that convicted me of one simple fact: most anti-tithing arguments often recycled are tenuous.

I am off to run some errands, but here is my final comment of the moment.

I have read the scriptures you have referenced and do encourage others to read them before they assume either you or I are correct on this matter. I am confident that the scriptures can speak for themself. There are also many great articles that come up both for and against tithing if you do a simple google search.

I used to be for tithing and after graduating from Bible College my views changed.

Thanks for your reply. A discussion on the ‘institutional church’ is a different thing from what we’re discussing. If you “refuse” by choice to give anything in church, that’s your preference – and I can respect that. However, that argument simply falls flat on its face because it is the sort of unrelated illation that most people wave for their anti-tithing stance. I know – because I’ve been there. What you call ‘institutional churches’ does not mean Hebrews 10:25 is no longer applicable in our lives. That is another subject on its own, so let’s not deviate from the present one.

The second point in yours is also unrelated. I don’t see how Scripture bears testimony to your distinction between the old covenant (we were “engaged”) and the new covenant (we are “married”) to God. First, please be consistent – the OT never said that “we” (as Gentiles) were “engaged” to God. I may have missed it, so please share if you find it actually teaches so (we’re all learning). However, the apostles did not mix up Jews and Gentiles together in the privileges and blessings of the old covenant. In fact, Paul writes in Ephesians 2:11-12 that the Gentiles were “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise” (KJV). Yet, indeed as Christians we’re constituted to be His bride (Rev. 21:9).

Second, in the OT it is God who called Himself the “husband” of His people ISRAEL (Isaiah 54:5 and Jeremiah 3:14), and also describes how Israel in a figure became His “wife” (Ezek. 16:8ff). In other instances, He prophetically declares that they would be bethrothed to Him (Hos. 2:19-20).

We cannot hold just a few verses to make unbalanced assertions, even though they are unrelated to the present subject being discussed.

You will find no model in scripture for the way institutional churches are conducted today. You arguement can work against you in as much as it can work against me.

In the old covenant we were engaged to God and in the new covenant we are married to God. These are two entirely different positions. True some of the old rules in dating are applied, but not all. As a believer I am now God’s bride.

I respect your opinion, but still choose not to give to the unscriptural institution man created.