Being in debt and Tithing
I can’t even count how many readers have emailed me asking me about whether or not they should tithe while getting out of debt. Tithing is a fiercely debated topic (read comments on the post I wrote called Tithing in the New Testament for proof) as you would expect with anything that seems to not make sense. I still wonder in amazement at how so many of God’s principles are absolute foolishness to non-christians… I mean who in their right mind would give expecting to have more?
That said, I will use this post as a summary of how I commonly answer the “tithing in times of challenge” questions. I will lay out my thoughts about the subject and what I have found from the Bible about it. The Bible says that we all know in part, so I don’t claim to know the answer for everyone, but this is what I have landed on. If this is a question you are asking for yourself, I suggest you pray and dig into your Bible!
My tithing story
I get a kick out of stepping out in faith. I absolutely love it. When I was 20 I packed up everything I owned an moved to Florida without a job lined up because I felt God calling me. I still remember the uncertainty of my ability to hear from God coupled with the thrill of the faith-walk. Turns out I was hearing from God and that season was a huge turning point in my life. I would have missed out on so much and I would be nowhere near where I am today spiritually had I not stepped out in faith and obeyed that leading.
The reason I bring this up is because we (Linda and I) have taken the same leaps of faith with tithing. As I detailed in a post called my tithing experience, I explained that due to an error on my part I found out that even though we thought we were tithing, we were actually about 1-2% short. With the same anticipation and feelings of uncertainty, we decided to fix the problem and increase our giving up to 10% – even though this would take our expenses higher than our income. Within a DAY we saw God kick our income up over our expenses. I am convinced he was trying to teach us a valuable lesson about His faithfulness – I never want to forget it.
While we have been working to pay off a huge chunk of debt over the last few years, we have been faithfully tithing. It would be nice if I could say that I started tithing and the next week a check came in the mail to pay off all of our debt, but God doesn’t seem to do it that way very often. He seems to be interested in changing us than just making the problem disappear. Honestly, what good would it do if He made all our debt disappear without us learning the discipline of handling our finances properly? If we created all the debt by over-spending, then we would just end up in the same place again.
While I haven’t received a $100,000 check in the mail yet, we have seen numerous large chunks of our debt paid off over the last few years – I thank God for them and am convinced that He was involved in bringing them to us.
So, should you tithe while getting out of debt?
Simply put, I think yes. I would be willing to bet that if we had spent the last 3 years paying our tithe money to our debts, we would not be near as far along as we are.
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I agree with you one hundred percent. We were both unemployed for two months this time last year and still tithed off of the savings that we were living off of. I wrote about this in my short e-book (http://www.whereyouarenow.com/blog/journey/) and believe that in order to be blessed, you must bless. We acted in faith and were provided for.
Good article!
I agree with you as well. My wife and I got married in the fall of 2006 and as we looked at our income decided to have over 10% of our total income automatically withdrawn from my wife’s paycheck and put into a separate account. When I became unemployed in 2007 we didn’t make any adjustments to that and never used the separate account for our own gains. We continued the model when we moved at the beginning of 2008.
Our problem is actually giving the money away! We believe that the tithe isn’t just for supporting the local church but also the wider Kingdom. So we support missionaries, charities, and our church out of the separate account we have setup.
We almost always have money to give away when asked.
Great post! I would agree with you 100% that we should tithe no matter what as I don’t find any conditions on tithing in the Bible. It’s our duty as Christians.
I certainly believe you should continue tithing. It teaches us to trust in God with one of the most important things in our life, our money. And the thing is, our tithes are what runs the church. I have no problem giving to the local church because I know that money is going toward getting people saved, and isn’t that what this life is about.
This is something my boyfriend and I fight over almost every Sunday! I make less than $140/month and I have no savings, no emergency funds, and often I’m very close to not making my bills. He doesn’t think I should be tithing, and I’m pretty adamant about it now that I’ve started. Very timely post!
I would agree also. My wife and I have paid off a significant amount of debt the last couple of years while tithing. We believe tithing is right! And God blesses obedience.
I like the article. Your precepts are on point, and i agree with your conclusion.
It’s amazing how the money stretches when we tithe. I’ve experienced God’s provision time and time again, when we’ve tithed in hard times.
Like you and others above, we hit hard times when we felt God’s call for me to quit my job and stay home but we continued to tithe. Big shocker … God has provided for over a year now. Why are we so surprised when God provides? It’s like being surprised that water quenches your thirst. He is always faithful.
I am glad to see so many others who have had similar experiences. The post I mentioned at the beginning of the article seems to only get comments arguing 101 reasons why you shouldn’t tithe – I guess it is how people are finding it in the search engines… But for those of us who have seen firsthand the benefits of tithing, it is hard to do anything else!
Great article and comments. I will also jump on the tithing while paying off debt bandwagon. I give my father and mother all the credit for teaching me about tithing from an early age. My wife and I tithed faithfully while paying off the debt we accumulated until we became debt free about 7 yrs ago.
I agree too. One year my husband’s division was eliminated and though he wasn’t fired, his salary was cut in half. When we were figuring out how to handle our budget he insisted that we continue tithing as much as we had been so we continued to tithe on what our salary was before the cut. Well, I became a believer in the tithe after that experience because some how we always had enough money at the end of each month. And within 2 years, my husband had a better job with better pay and benefits than he did before. I’m a tither for life.
Can a man serve two masters? Can he serve both debt and God with his money? How can God accept a gift from someone who still is a slave to something else? If there are no other options, I would say stop tithing and get out of debt.
- jared b.
Adamantly YES! God provides in amazing ways, as you have shared personally. And, we have too had the experience where a check has unexpectedly come in the mail when it was tight. We firmly believe it was God’s way of saying He would take care of us.
Tithing is a principle without conditions, and since it is a principle of firstfruits, there is no reason not to do it. If you put your tithe first you have the entire 90% left to pay your bills. When we return to God that which belongs to Him, we are demonstrating our love and trust in Him.
I do tell people that giving free-will offerings above and beyond their tithe is something they should stop (unless directed by God), while getting out of debt.
I do not agree. I do not tithe and I have many stories of how God has blessed me financially and in other ways. I think God would want you to first pay your debts. I would never agree that God would want you to short pay those you owe because of your tithe. I also think it is obsurd to believe that people would place giving to there local church over taking care of their family’s needs.
Further-more the tithe is part of the law of which we are not under the law.
@Joshua We are to honor God first, family second, self third. Honor God first and the rest will fall into place. Give to God with what he has blessed you with and he will make sure your need are met.
Joshua: Why would you think its absurd that people would give to their local church over their family needs? Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler to sell all he had and give it to the poor. The early church put all their possessions together.
And as far as not being under the law anymore. In Luke Jesus did say that the Pharisees tithed but neglected loving God. But he tells them to do both.
Luke 11:42
42″Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
Its obvious from your post that your looking to yourself to take care of your family needs, and I think God would want us to look to Him instead.
The answer to your arguement with Luke 11:42 is very simple the Pharisees were under the law prior to the resurrection as jews.
Out of respect I will avoid pasting links to a 22 part video series on youtube of why tithing is not for today. I will also not post links to numerous web site that offer biblical proof that tithing is old covenant. You reader “if they want to” find proof there are plenty of materials available through google.
I will have fun having this debate with you later because my lunch is over. I am a seasoned Bible scholar.
@Joshua No debate necessary: Why don’t you WANT to give? Law or no law, we should WANT to give.
I do give, but I do not give to fund the churches mortgage on a building they only use 20% of the week.
I give directly to the needy because then I get the reward of seeing the smiles on the faces of the people I help. Why pay the church to do what God asked us to do directly? We all are responsable to give to the least of these.
Hope your readers like the challenge I am issuing. Some will see depriving the institution to care for the needy directly as the christian robin hood approach. If churches have to choose between saving the institution or taking care of the needs of the average people they will likely choose the paying the church mortgage every time. Why should I short pay my mortgage so they don’t have to short pay theirs? That means that single mother trying to raise a family on her own will likely be forgotten.
@Joshua I agree with you on that argument and practice the same giving habit.
Good then I am glad I stopped by.
Nice to meet you!
Only 90% of your money is yours. You can give 10% with a cheerful heart in the form of a tithe, or it will be taken from you in the form of an untimely expense, perhaps a home or car repair, or an unexpected medical bill. Do the math. That expense often adds up to 10% of your income.
anonymous:
Glad I don’t serve your God. Tithe is old testament and if you want to debate just ley me know and I will have a ton of resources posted in my next comment that biblically prove that the tithe is the law that we are no longer under. You how ever sound like a person that has placed themself under the law. God is not an extortionist. God cannot be manipulated by the remote control of our giving. I have been blessed with every spiritual blessing and yet I give directly to the needy and refuse to give to the institutional church. New Testament giving is completely different. Even in the old testament the tithe was ALWAYS food NOT money. If you want to debate let me know.
Joshua: I don’t care to debate you on the tithing issue because I believe you’re right in saying that it was required under the old law and the only time its found in the New Testament is when referencing the old law. I give to my church not because I believe God is going to strike me down if I don’t, but because I believe in supporting my local church and their mission to reach the lost.
Do you attend a church? By what you’ve said it seems that you think giving to the church is almost a waste of money because they’re not used very much. And I can see where you’re coming from because a lot of churches build large buildings, fellowship halls, and gyms and rarely use them.
A church in my community built a huge gym a few years ago that probably cost them close to a million dollars and its never open to the public, you either have to be a member or come with a member to get in when it is open. I wouldn’t want to give to that church either. But why not find a church that shares your same mindset for giving to the needy and support them.
Youreverydaychristian:
I see no reason to join a institutional church. My spiritual church are the friends I gather with for fellowship. The say study to show yourself approved. Plus church is more of a spectator sport dominated by a dream team of leaders and clicks. Giving directly to the needy is an act of worship in itself. The modern model of church does not allow the members of the body to participate in the service which is contrary to the first churches in the book of ACTs. Now we have created fast food communion compared to the first christians in the book of ACTs having an actual meal in remembrance of what Christ did. Maybe considering the way a healthy human body functions is a better example of how the church body should function. We should have a church without walls instead we have a church body that is all head and no body. Maybe this is another topic for another day. Consider this…. in America it is a fact that the most prescribed drugs are for anxiety and depression. The institutional church is so busy trying to preserve itself that it is disconnected with the pain of the average struggling American and the needy people sitting in it’s pews week after week.
Great article. I am a single parent and am having a hard time financially. I have not been tithing and am having trouble going out on that limb, since I can’t make ends meet as it is. I do donate my time to my church, but not tithing financially. I know that I need to tithe, and am praying that God will strengthen my faith in this area. Please pray for me in this area. Thank you.
Tammy is a perfect example of what I was saying above. The church should be giving to single mothers like Tammy and never taking from or accepting tithes from people who struggle. How did we become a church that takes instead of gives? Let me see???? Should I pay the church mortgage or my own? I have never given to the institution and God is blessing me. The tithe is law and we are not under the law. If we are obligated to tithe then we are obligated to follow all the laws in the book of Leviticus.
Hi Joshua,
No one questions that God blesses you for choosing not to tithe – you’re not alone; for He blesses many others, INCLUDING those who actually tithe. What you should calmly consider is that Scripture does not advocate the idea of making your own anti-tithing experience the law for others who are tithing. Let God be God in responding to those who tithe.
Like you, I once vigorously argued against tithing for Christians, using the same retired argument as you did – “The tithe is law and we are not under the law.” For example, so many people go around such verses as Matt. 23:23 on tithing by arguing two things, that:
1. Jesus addressed the Jews, not Christians;
2. He spoke those words before Calvary:
. . . and then they conclude Jesus’ statement (“these ought ye to have done, and NOT TO LEAVE the other UNDONE”) in Matt. 23:23 is NOT for Christians! It was not until recently that God graciously humbled me to see that most of these anti-tithing arguments are mere excuses.
You said: ‘The tithe is law and we are not under the law. If we are obligated to tithe then we are obligated to follow all the laws in the book of Leviticus.’
If that idea stands, then perhaps no Christian should take anything from the Law into his/her Christian faith. What’s more, we could also make the excuse that ‘loving God’ is also Law, and we are not under the Law!! Please let me explain:
In Matthew 22, a Pharisee asked the Lord Jesus about “the great commandment in the LAW” (v. 36). Jesus responded by quoting a verse from the LAW (like Deut. 6:5) – “And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.” (see Matt. 22:37).
The amazing thing is that these dear folks cannot use the same argument againt Matt. 22:36-37! WHY? Was He not also addressing the JEWS? Did He not quote the same LAW of Moses? Did He not speak these things BEFORE Calvary? So why makes excuses for Matthew 23:23 and shy away from using the same rule of arguments against Matthew 22:36-37?
Let’s come back to your assertion: “If we are obligated to tithe then we are obligated to follow ALL the laws in the book of Leviticus”.
Unfortunately, that misses the true spirit of God’s ways and Word. Should we also argue the same for Matt. 22:37 by saying: “If we are obligated to love God then we are obligated to follow ALL the laws in the book of Deuteronomy”?!?
God is not asking you to follow ALL the Laws of Leviticus or Deuteronomy in a legalistic manner. Indeed, we’re not under the Law, but God has laid some godly principles in the Law for the people of faith, ie. Christians. Arguing wholesale against the Law is the reason why many people fail to consider what the apostle Paul declares: “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW” (Romans 3:31).
God does not call us as Christians to make our lives and worship a matter of “obligated” or “required” – that is legalism. He simply invites our hearts to participate in the fellowship of His Son in joyfully giving to God what belongs to Him, in as much as we render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar (Matt. 22:21).
Slowly, I’m healing from these typical anti-tithing arguments that sadly mishandle the Law. I’ve closely watched a few people who were tithing while they were heavily in debt. God has quietly proven His power in their lives in such a way as to challenge me and my friends deeply. I hope that you would calmly consider this as well, while looking to God to demonstrate that He is more than our clever human arguments against His Word and ways.
Many blessings.
Just for the record I do tithe directly to the needy. The reason I do this is to make sure the money addresses the specific needs of people I intimately know. I do not want money going toward church mortgages or rent payments when people in this economy are struggling to survive.
God loves a cheerful giver and I have found a way to cheerfully give.
Okay Josh, no worries. My deepest apologies where I might have wrongly read you. Before posting my comments, I’d taken some time to read through those preceding mine and had mistakenly concluded you had chosen to not tithe – from your comments earlier:
.
However, if you’re sharing with us just above that you DO tithe, good to know.
Warm regards.
Hi Bob,
I’d like to thank you for the very helpful resources on your website. It’s amazing to read many people testifying of God’s response to their faith in tithing – that’s quite a challenge, and reinforces a confirmation of those other few that I’ve witnessed firsthand. It may not make sense to those of us who have once vigorously argued against it; but God has been merciful in bringing conviction to help me follow this example of faith.
May the Lord Jesus enlarge you and bless the fruit of your labours for His Name sake.
Gwaine.
Gwaine:
Just drawing a differentiation between the needy and the institution.
Josh
I appreciate your distinction. However, giving to the needy (Gal. 2:10) does not negate giving in church (2 Cor. 8:24). We should not confuse them in order to prefer one to the other, for doing so simply means we’re setting our own prejudices over God’s Word.
Gwaine:
Actually in God’s word the poor get more preferential treatment then the temple / priests.
I like the words of Jesus:
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
I wonder why Jesus didn’t say give the money to the temple or the priests because this would have been the perfect opportunity.
There’s actually a balance in Scripture on these matters, while not deviating from the core subject here (tithing while in debt).
First, the basic issue is about tithing – and I observed in your initial post that you ‘DO NOT’ tithe, although you tried to correct any wrong impressions that may have left me. Second, the point was made to not confuse giving ‘to the poor’ for giving ‘in church’.
However, how many people quoting Matthew 19:21 actually obey Jesus’ statement in that verse in all honesty? This was why I said that God is more than our clever human arguments on matters like this.
You said: “I wonder why Jesus didn’t say give the money to the temple or the priests because this would have been the perfect opportunity.”
Well, if we have to raise issues from Jesus’ direct statements in the Gospels on giving, perhaps Luke 21 answers your quest for giving ‘money to the temple’. There Jesus commended the poor widow for giving “ALL she had to live on” (vv. 1-3). Do we truly give “ALL we have to live on”? And oh, you won’t find that in the Law of Moses – yet, that is precisely what the Lord Jesus commended to challenge our hearts.
It’s not quite a healthy practice for us as Christians to cherry-pick verses to buttress our prejudices and preferences. We could give to the poor in whatever way we choose – and there are loads of verses in both the OT and NT to inspire and encourage that. However, there are also verses pointing us to the proof of our love in committed giving in Church.
The one is not confused for the other; nor does God’s Word make the sort of partisan choices we often try to force-read into the text. Apart from the convenient excuses we sometimes make to justify why we choose just one aspect over the other, we find at the end of the day that Scripture sets a sound balance before us.
Gwaine:
You will find no model in scripture for the way institutional churches are conducted today. You arguement can work against you in as much as it can work against me.
In the old covenant we were engaged to God and in the new covenant we are married to God. These are two entirely different positions. True some of the old rules in dating are applied, but not all. As a believer I am now God’s bride.
I respect your opinion, but still choose not to give to the unscriptural institution man created.
Joshua,
Thanks for your reply. A discussion on the ‘institutional church’ is a different thing from what we’re discussing. If you “refuse” by choice to give anything in church, that’s your preference – and I can respect that. However, that argument simply falls flat on its face because it is the sort of unrelated illation that most people wave for their anti-tithing stance. I know – because I’ve been there. What you call ‘institutional churches’ does not mean Hebrews 10:25 is no longer applicable in our lives. That is another subject on its own, so let’s not deviate from the present one.
The second point in yours is also unrelated. I don’t see how Scripture bears testimony to your distinction between the old covenant (we were “engaged”) and the new covenant (we are “married”) to God. First, please be consistent – the OT never said that “we” (as Gentiles) were “engaged” to God. I may have missed it, so please share if you find it actually teaches so (we’re all learning). However, the apostles did not mix up Jews and Gentiles together in the privileges and blessings of the old covenant. In fact, Paul writes in Ephesians 2:11-12 that the Gentiles were “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise” (KJV). Yet, indeed as Christians we’re constituted to be His bride (Rev. 21:9).
Second, in the OT it is God who called Himself the “husband” of His people ISRAEL (Isaiah 54:5 and Jeremiah 3:14), and also describes how Israel in a figure became His “wife” (Ezek. 16:8ff). In other instances, He prophetically declares that they would be bethrothed to Him (Hos. 2:19-20).
We cannot hold just a few verses to make unbalanced assertions, even though they are unrelated to the present subject being discussed.
Gwaine:
I am off to run some errands, but here is my final comment of the moment.
I have read the scriptures you have referenced and do encourage others to read them before they assume either you or I are correct on this matter. I am confident that the scriptures can speak for themself. There are also many great articles that come up both for and against tithing if you do a simple google search.
I used to be for tithing and after graduating from Bible College my views changed.
One thing I’ve always encouraged is for people to check and re-check whatever is being said by anyone. So yes – the references are there for what we’ve shared both ways. It’s interesting how our previous views have changed to the present, but I’m still wondering what to make of your last line above. You used to be for tithing; then you DO NOT tithe; and yet again “just for the record” you DO tithe directly to the needy. Am I missing something here?
Google has been a great help in my checking the arguments on either side – and it was precisely that exercise that convicted me of one simple fact: most anti-tithing arguments often recycled are tenuous.
No reason for any debate here, but I happen to know that a lot of the old testmant fundamentals apply to my life and walk with Christ.
True we are NOT under the Law “which brings a curse now” and “no flesh shall be justified by the works of the Law”
Jesus Christ spilt His blood as the ultimate sacrafice for all mankind. Those of us under the New Covenant look to Jesus as our great High Priest now. With the Law, you could not go directly to God, but you would have to bring them to the High Priest, and the High Priest would represent in behalf of those. That is what 1/3 of Hebrews is talking about, “why would you want to back to the Law?”
However, the Old Testmant is still valid and still pertains to us, and also show us the heart of God.
Examples: Under the Law, man was forbidden to eat the blood of any animal, whatsoever. You had to drain the blood out first and then cut it up to eat.
But that Law is still valid today, as it says in Acts 15:19-20 “Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
but that we write to them to ABSTAIN from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, FROM THINGS STANGLED, AND FROM BLOOD.”
We are still told by God to keep abstaining from drinking blood, yet we are not under the law, but it still applies to us.
The #1 Commandment in the Old Testament is still the #1 Commandment in the New Testament, to this very day “To love thy God with all your heart, mind, and soul”
The 10 Commandments. Even though our salvation does not depend on living up to them, because Jesus has already done that. Most still apply to us today. At least me anyway…If I happen lie, or keep overgiven change, then of course I bow down and repent asking for forgiveness.
Everytime I see a rainbow, It reminds me of the covenent He gave to Noah and to all generations there after, and no one can take that away.
Bottom line, “ALL scripture is inspired by God” Old and New Testament. Jesus said His Word will never pass away, and He has spoken as the Great I AM in the Old and New testament. He tells us to “meditate on it” “learn from It”, and also says “His Word will never return back to Him void”
Either we believe the whole bilbe or don’t believe it all. If we did not have the Old testament, the New testament would make no sense to us, and just as we try to obey the 10 Commandments, we are also still held under a Old Testamant Law “Do not drink the blood of any animal”
My whole point here is, I have read this post from top to bottom, and I can see how Satin creeps into churches or believer’s to start arguing and debating, when we should be typing about winning souls over to Christ.
I love my walk with God, and would not replace it for nothing! I have gave to people in need, bible league, church and many other places.
I do not consider my offerings as a tithe to God anymore. That is like me telling God how He should spend His money.
I love to take 10% of my money first and tell God “here is your money, you know where this needs to go a lot more than I do” Then I thank Him for the rest that I have left over. There is just something so ausome that happens when we stand in faith, even during hard times because I know He will never break His promise to make sure I am feed. If you ever stop to think about it, there are only 2 things that Jesus ever marveled here on earth. It was a person’s “Faith” or “Unbelief”
God is just, and has never failed me in 5 years. I recently got layed of here in California, and I am on unemployment right now, and I can’t wait to give to God. Like it was said above “giving is better than recieving” and I give to God and those in need.
It reminds me of when Jesus and all the desciple where gathering up money together, and a woman came up and cheerfully and willingly gave what she had with all her heart, which was: with two mites. That is why Jesus said “this woman has given more than anyone here, for she gave her last..”
Jesus concludes “Give unto what Ceaser’s and give to God, what is God’s”
cut and dry.
Advise: Pray to your Best Friend (and Father) in Heaven, and listen to Him and His Word.
May God Bless You all and keep us all on the right track!
Todd
Todd, that was awesome – thank you for sharing your heart.
Wow! Debt Free? I am not debt free yet, but I am working on it. Yes, I certainly believe in tithing. When I was laid off from work I continued to tithe with harldy any income coming in. I really don’t think God gave us any conditions in which we are not to tithe. In one parable or story in the Bible in which Jesus told about a very poor lady that gave all that she had, compared with a rich man that had much, the poor lady gave above and beyond what she could afford. Nowhere in the Bible will you find that Jesus said that if you have no work, or are not being paid not to give. I was not expecting a raise this last year at all, but received a raise much more than I ever dreamed of. I do agree God is very faithful!
Gwaine,
Irrespective of whose argument carries more weight, I appreciate your style and sense love and maturity in your arguments. To God be the glory!
Regarding the content, I think you make some very good points. I also respect the points Joshua makes about the institutional church and the dangers of legalism, obligation to the law, etc.
May I add one thing to this already rich discussion? I believe there is a conceptual misstep when people talk about the merits of a church receiving their money.
Conceptually, whether you think it’s required or not, giving “off-the-top” to God is a demonstration of faith, an act of worship, and a choosing of our master. (That’s what it was prior to the law, throughout the law, and after the law, regardless of your interpretation of the “tithe” proper.)
When we adjust that giving based on what we think the recipient might do with it, it’s possible we’re shortchanging the process. Returning a portion back to God, as the rightful owner, should not be tainted by us then claiming a right to determine how that money is spent. It’s God’s.
God has throughout history placed certain people (even people belonging to institutions) in the fearful position of responsibility for that spending. The leaders of many churches today will indeed have a lot to answer for. However, our job is to return back to GOD a portion in recognition that it is His. Giving to the poor is something different entirely. That is something we do from the portion we have left. That portion is “ours” and we determine (on biblical principles) how it is to be spent, and for many reasons, part of that spending should be to give to the poor. Let’s not intermingle the two concept though (giving to God vs. giving to the poor), or much will be missed, from either end of the spectrum.
BTW, I rarely write anything without providing scriptural support, but I perceive that you, Joshua and Gwaine, are capable of reflecting what I’ve written against the Word of God and allowing the Spirit to lead you as He sees fit.
As to the subject at hand: tithing while in debt. If you are making payments according to a schedule that the creditor has agreed to then you are not stealing from someone else in order to give to God. So, tithe (or not. but at least give to God “off-the-top”. Why not start with an arbitrary number, oh say 10%. I suspect that percentage was well-designed by Someone), and pay your bills (creditors included) with what’s left. If, after giving to God, you are not able to make the payments you have agreed to with your creditor, then the only way to survive would be to default or borrow more. In either case, you would be out of line with godly principles. You would then be using someone else’s money to pay God. Ok, so in that case, do what any good financial counselor would tell you. Negotiate new terms with your creditors based on what you have. Propose to them exactly how you intend on paying them back. Make your proposal based on prioritization and proportionality. When doing that, make giving to God your highest priority, for spiritual reasons, not legal (or anti-legal) ones, and I’m sure He will give you profound wisdom in handling those re-negotiations.
God bless,
Jesse
@Jesse,
Thank you so very much for adding to my understanding. I certainly didn’t have all the answers; but you have helped to contextualize certain issues and also highlighted a few things that I might’ve missed (perhaps due to the ‘technical’ nature of the discussion between Josh and myself). May the Lord Jesus Christ enrich you even more.
I’ve read the author’s take on tithing. In fact, I grew up believing for years that tithing was mandatory or I’d be “cursed with a curse” as mentioned in Mal 3. I decided one day to study tithing from Gen 14 to Jesus’ mentioning of it in Matt23. I have to say I disagree with the author that tithing for the Church is relevant for many reasons. There’s too much to cover in this forum with one post so I’ll just hit my points quickly.
Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek was not the example of tithing done by Israel in the OT. Abraham tithed to this king once and never from his personal possessions. It was from the spoils of war in which he waged to save his nephew Lot. He gave the king a tithe out of respect and gave the 90% back to Sodom.
Secondly, Tithing was never about money, it was about agriculture. Deut 14:24 – 26 shows exactly what principle of tithing was. Please read it.
Third, the argument that the 10 commandments still apply so why not tithes is too open ended. Why not practice circumcision or burnt offerings?
The practice of tithing today resembles little to tithing by Israel as they tithed in 7yr cycles. In the 7th yr they didn’t tithe at all. Tithes were never given to build the temple but it fed those that did not have like the Levites, Priests, widows, fatherless & poor (sojourners).
There’s a reason tithing isn’t mentioned much in the NT, just like the rest of the Mosaic Laws. Christ satisfied the law with his death and resurrection. This is why we are no longer under the law but grace (Gal 3:13).
There is a principle for giving fully supported in the NT but it’s not tithes (2 Cor 9:6). Clearly there are rewards for giving bountifully to the Church but to say that we’re “cursed with a curse” is not supported by Paul’s teaching in Gal 3:13 which states we’re free from the curse of the law. Tithing is not the exception.
I leave you with the words of 2 Cor 9:7. “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” There is no compulsion to give 10% or be cursed as it is in direct contradiction with NT teachings.
Great points Jeff!
Love it.
Thanks Josh. I just went back and read some of the posts since Jan of this year. What I see is typical of other discussions I’ve had about tithing. I used to be on the other side believing that it was mandatory and God would not bless me if I didn’t give at least 10%. In the back of my mind I always wondered, why do they always go to the OT to support tithing?
Tithing has been taught so vigorously in the church that if you tell people they’re wrong, they immediately shut you off. I found that tithing wasn’t even practiced by the Church until the Middle Ages, a full 5 centuries after the death and resurrection. If tithing is right, this means the NT Churches and all subsequent Churches between the resurrection and the Middle Ages were cursed for not tithing. One person told me she was hurt because I told her tithing was wrong. I provided scripture to support my position. She said she just believe it’s the right thing to do because she was taught to tithe.
I’ve heard what I believe are the best arguments supporting tithing. From Melchezidek, to Malachi to Jesus saying he fulfilled the law. The answer is in what Jesus himself said. He was there not to destroy it but fulfill it. So I checked Webster’s dictionary on the word “fulfill”. It means “to satisfy the requirement”, “to being an end to”, “to put into effect”. It’s not that Jesus nullified the law but he satisfied the requirements. The Law couldn’t make man righteous. It was just a covering until Jesus came and did that through his death. Once it was done, the purpose of the Law was fulfilled. Man was made righteous through the blood of the Lamb.
The reason why we no longer practice circumcision and burnt offerings is because it looks backwards. The Law was pointing to the cross. To practice the Law is pointing backwards. It’s like saying the cross never happened. The cross abolished the need to practice all of the Law without exceptions. In the words of Jesus on that sad but victorious day at Calvary..”It is finished”.
Hello everyone, and Happy New Year to all.
@Jeff,
It seems that your comments were borrowed arguments that have been recycled far too many times and there’s hardly any originality in them. Sadly, they are simply false and have no substance to them. Let me quote you on one of such lines:
Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek was not the example of tithing done by Israel in the OT. Abraham tithed to this king once and never from his personal possessions. It was from the spoils of war in which he waged to save his nephew Lot. He gave the king a tithe out of respect and gave the 90% back to Sodom.
That argument is misplaced, and I’ll just trash it out here again by reposting my answers given in another website, WFTB (Wealth From The Bible) – http://wealthfromthebible.com/sowingreaping/is-tithing-obsolete/#comment-384
Abraham’s Tithe Not From His Own Possession?
#3. Actually, the spoils of war belonged to Abraham, for that’s what Scripture teaches. You do not take someone else’s property and adjudicate over them in any way if they do not belong to you – that would be theft, and would seriously violate the principles of conscience and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Here are reasons why the “not his own property” argument is a fallacy:
(a). First, the Bible warns against the practice of interpreting a verse all by itself without comparing it with other verses – “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation” (2 Pet. 1:20). What many folks have done is interprete those verses in Gen. 14:18-24 ‘privately’ on their own without comparing them with other verses to see if their assumptions stand.
(b). Hence, the fact that the spoils of war belonged to Abraham is found in Melchizedek’s declaration: “blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand” (Gen. 14:20). When you read the OT, you find the statement that God would deliver their enemies into their hands meant clearly that the spoils belonged to the conquerors. See Deut. 20:12-14 for example (emphasis mine) -
“…And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and ALL that is in the city, even ALL the spoil THEREOF, shalt thou take unto THYSELF; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.”
Thus, to argue that the spoils were not Abraham’s is to deny Scripture and read one’s eisegesis into the text.
c) Now if the spoils did not belong to Abraham, there’s a serious question for Russell and his colleagues: why would Abraham take something that was not his and give to other people (Melchizedek, Aner, Eschol and Mamre)? That Abraham gave all the spoils away does not negate the fact that they belonged to him in the first place – for it would make absolutely no sense at all for him to have treated the spoils as his own in presiding over them, if the spoils did not belong to him in the first place. Even Hugo Grotius’ “De Jure Belli ac Pacis” cited by Russell strongly makes the point that the spoils belonged to the conqueror Abraham, as quoted earlier: “…the Law Giver Himself. . . gives ALL the spoils to the conqueror” (http://www.constitution.org/gro/djbp_306.htm) – the very same fact explicated in Deut. 20:12-14.
Perhaps it never occured to Russell that his ‘private interpretation’ was violating 2 Pet. 1:20; and that Melchizedek’s pronouncements in Gen. 14:20 clearly agrees with Deut. 20:12-14.
@Jeff,
Here’s the second point from yours that I’d like to address:
[quote: "He gave the king a tithe out of respect and gave the 90% back to Sodom." unquote]
Again, my answers from the WTFB website addresses this point.
Did Abraham give 90% back to the king of Sodom?
#4. That’s another often recycled fallacy, and it may shock these folks that Genesis 14:18-24 does not teach that Abraham gave the 90% of the spoils to the king of Sodom. It is merely assumed by many people that he did so; and this assumption is completely unsupported by the verses cited for it, nor by any other verses in the Bible, nor even by the external references cited for it (such as Hugo Grotius’ “De Jure Belli ac Pacis”). Here are reasons why the king of Sodom did not get a 90% from Abraham:
(a) What could possibly be meant by Abraham’s response to the king of Sodom in verses 22-24? It’s easy to see – the moment we ignore what Melchizedek said to Abraham (because people dubiously see “pagan tithes” there), then we miss everything else. It was the Most High God that gave everything to Abraham – that was what Melchizedek recognized when he blessed Abraham: “blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand” (Gen. 14:20).
(b) From the same inference given in Deut. 20:14 (”and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies“), we can understand WHY Abraham made the statement in Gen. 14:24 – “Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; LET THEM HAVE THEIR PORTION“. Abraham was not presiding or adjudicating over what did not belong to him; indeed, it would have been wrong of him to have taken what was not his in the victory of that war and then given them to other people (Melchizedek; and his confederates – Aner, Eschol and Mamre). Melchizedek’s pronouncements in Gen. 14:20 (”the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand”) should not be ignored when reading the verses following therefrom.
(c) Now if Abraham gave 90% to the king of Sodom, what “portion” was he referring to in verse 24 – “and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion“? The spoils belong to the conquerors (according to Deut. 20:12-14); therefore, Russell and his colleagues would have to intelligently explain where Abraham got the “portion” for his confederates if he gave 90% to the king of Sodom.
The inconsistencies and vacant assertions often made by many anti-tithers leaves one wondering if they have a good grasp of what they argue. Hopefully, as these are examined, they will become redundant and consequently retired.
Many blessings.
The reason why we no longer practice circumcision and burnt offerings is because it looks backwards. The Law was pointing to the cross. To practice the Law is pointing backwards. It’s like saying the cross never happened. The cross abolished the need to practice all of the Law without exceptions. In the words of Jesus on that sad but victorious day at Calvary..”It is finished”.
___________________
@Jeff,
Again, the above from yours is not helpful as it takes too many things for granted. It is true that Christians are not under the Mosaic Law, but that is not to say that the Law is completely thrown behind us so that nothing from it applies to the Christian.
If you want to make the argument that the Cross “abolished the need to practice ALL of the Law without exceptions“, then you are effectively saying that nothing from the Law should be found in the Christian faith. To take ANY past of that Law and apply it to the Christian faith quite simply collapses your argument. And indeed – there are quite a whole lot of points from that Law which we find as principles in the NT for the Christian. A few examples:
(a) Christian marriages – 1 Cor. 7:39 – “The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.”
(b) Children & obedience – Eph. 6:2 – “Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise)” [ see Exo. 20:12].
But there is more, and if we take your assertion of abolishing ALL of the Law without exceptions, then most certainly those verses should not even appear in the NT for the Christian. Infact, the apostle Paul who declared that Christians are not under the law, is the very same apostle who declared again in Romans 3:31 that – “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”
Now, don’t get me wrong. ‘Establishing the law’ is not a matter of legalism, but of principles. This is why even though the Christian is not under the Law, yet we understand that “whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope” [Romans 15:4]. It is quite simply the spirit of legalism that drives many of our brethren to immature arguments of the sort that you outlined. May we learn to see the principles in God’s Word (both OT and NT) for our faith today – for I assure you that almost every single point about giving in the NT was directly derived from the OT, and many of them directly from the same Law that we often are in a hurry to treat with disregard.
Cheers.
Gwaine says
“The inconsistencies and vacant assertions often made by many anti-tithers leaves one wondering if they have a good grasp of what they argue. Hopefully, as these are examined, they will become redundant and consequently retired.”
Jeff says
Greeting Gwaine. Glad to hear you’re take on this.
Is it your contention that because Abram gave these men their due (which made the rest less than 90%), this somehow negates all my position on tithes? I think that’s a pretty big stretch. I also think you‘re completely missing my point.
We’re taught that Abram tithed to Melchizedek therefore we must tithe to the church. And this is proof that we should tithe from our salaries. My point is this. Abram kept none of the spoils. He returned what was left after he gave Melchizedek a 10% and those men who helped him in war their share because it was honorable. The rest went back to the King of Sodom. Nothing in Gen 14 supports Abram tithing to Melchizedek from his personal possessions but of the spoils of a war he waged to rescue his nephew. In fact, there’s no other recording of Abram (or later Abraham) ever practicing tithing to anyone from his personal assets.
Gwine says
Again, the above from yours is not helpful as it takes too many things for granted. It is true that Christians are not under the Mosaic Law, but that is not to say that the Law is completely thrown behind us so that nothing from it applies to the Christian.
If you want to make the argument that the Cross “abolished the need to practice ALL of the Law without exceptions“, then you are effectively saying that nothing from the Law should be found in the Christian faith. To take ANY past of that Law and apply it to the Christian faith quite simply collapses your argument.
Jeff says
The Galatians were arguing that the Law still must be practiced. Don’t take my word for it.
Gal 3
“1. O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ….
10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”
Gwaine says
But there is more, and if we take your assertion of abolishing ALL of the Law without exceptions, then most certainly those verses should not even appear in the NT for the Christian…
… Romans 3:31 that – “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”
Jeff says
Have you taken time to read the rest of Romans 3? Let me post some things you’ve conveniently left out
3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
I think you and others making this assertion that the “Law is not done away with” are once again being selective. Especially when Paul says if we try to keep one part of it then we’re bound to all of it.
Gal 10 – 13
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:”
You fail to understand something. The Law was a covering until Jesus came and fulfilled its purpose. He established it. He satisfied the requirement. God always intended man to live righteous and Jesus made this possible.
Gal 3:24–25
“the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
As you have pointed out, the NT teaches the same righteous principles however what it DOESN’T teach is practice of the Mosaic Laws. What it DOES teach is that we are now saved by faith not the law. If your point is to say tithing is binding, then as Paul said, you are bound to all of it which means, the Sabbath, circumcision, burnt offerings, stoning those who commit adultery, etc.
I can accept your position if it wasn’t so selectively expedient in its form. To defend tithing while not practicing any other part of the law is hypocrisy at its finest.
We all know that God doesn’t change. His plan has always been to have a relationship with man. Clearly His instruction to Israel was a representation of His son Jesus and what he would do. Why tithing is the only part of the law that’s still necessary quite honestly is baffling.
Well said Jeff.
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http://www.facebook.com/joshua.guild
My testimony on finances.
Tithing works wonders. Whan i got the revelation on tithing i wish i was doing it before. The moment i started to tithe i saw the floodgates of heaven open for me . I did not rec’d a huge amt at one given time but i experience Issiah 45 : 3 working madly for me. God gave me an instruction to move from one location to another this involve renting i did not have a job. I thought to .myself this is crazy. but stepping out in obedience i realise the word works.
I move into a house with out one penny to pay the next month rent, while living in the house the Holy Spirit spoke. He said check a particular area in the house & more than 2000.00usd was found stuck away in an old abandoned bag with bits of paper that had look like garbage. As i continue to walk in his obedience my debts written off , money was found on my bank a/c that i new nothing about & i can go on & on. The acts of the apostles is still writing. Be encourage continue to tithe & walk in God’s obedience. The wealth of the wicked is store up for the just. Ecclesiastes 2:26, 10:19 (read).
We have been asking ourselves this question for the past 6-months. Due to a large debt load the 10% tithe eliminates any spending for food or gasoline for the month. I don’t know how my wife has been pulling off paying the bills because of our debt but she has and the creditors are not calling. She is amazing. We have forced savings of about $120 a month and 2009 was the first year we did not use credit for Christmas! We are slooowwly making headway but we will be upside down for a while. We are praying for God’s help / direction and we are trusting Him. We started tithing almost 1 year ago.
I have many friends who were tithing religiously here in Arizona and they are all suffering just as much or more then most.
I even poked fun at them early on for tithing and some of them now see my point as they no longer tithe to their churches.
The new covenant is a marriage with God so now we are in this together with Him. We are married to God….. Think about finances in marriage and how money is shared in a joint checking account. My wife and I don’t give each other money…. we share it.
Hey Josh. It’s good to see you again. As both a past tither and now a giver I’ve learned long ago this subject is a stronghold. Some will never believe otherwise, even when confronted with compelling truth.
First, there’s nothing wrong the giving of 10%. The bondage comes in when they believe that the Father demands payment from His children. The one consistent thing some simply refuse to read is that tithing given in the Mosaic Law was purposed for consumption. Let me share a revelation I found in studying the tithe.
We know that tithing is part of the Mosaic Law. We know that the law was a covering, pointing to the acts of Jesus who ultimately fulfilled the law . With tithing came instruction from God to consume it. It took care of those who did not have (the poor, fatherless, widows, etc). They even tithed to themselves twice during the tithing cycle.
Fast forward. When we look at the acts of Jesus in the NT, we see that it was those who were less fortunate that he commanded we take care of (Matt 25:40). He wanted their needs satisfied. During the last supper, Jesus gave them bread. He told the disciples to eat it; it was his body broken for them. He gave them wine and said to drink it. It was his blood he shed for them.
I believe there’s a direct correlation with the consumption of the tithe and the consumption of the last supper. Now I know this is deeper than some want to go but God is a God of purpose and in every instance we see God’s instruction to consume it. I believe it was symbolic to Christ satisfying the needs of all, especially the less fortunate and to accept his gift within to be everlastingly satisfied. It’s the covenant connector between man & God through Jesus our mediator.